Well, just wanted to throw a few verses out there on the ‘shallow’ topic of eschatology before heading back into the more troubled waters.
Just going to list a few with some short comments after each and then an invitation to dialog. I am not deeply settled on all this so I would enjoy hearing your comments.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matt 16:28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
So the kingdom comes at least within the lifetime of some of those witnessing this. And judging by verse 27 the kingdom is something more than His death on the cross and salvation being brought to the gentiles.
Mark 9:1 And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”
Luke 9:27 “But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”
Parallel passages. Yeah. Same stuff. Some here are not going to die till they see the Kingdom of God.
Matt. 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
Mark 13:30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
Luke 21:32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.
Again parallel passages. The question should be, to whom does the term ‘this generation’ apply. Is it the generation to whom He was speaking or the generation of those days, that they would last throughout all these things. Owing to the context I think the former interpretation is more feasible.
Matt. 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Christ tells the high priest that he would witness the coming of the Son of Man with his own eyes. Needless to say, dead men dont see. He would have to be alive to see Him coming.
Luke 11:50-51 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.
The blood of the prophets required of that generation to whom He spoke.
Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
Rev. 22:6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
These things would come to pass shortly. By any reckoning two thousand years is a long time. He was warning them to be on their toes for His coming. Two thousand years??? Hmm.
If anybody has thoughts or epiphanies throw them out here. Would especially like to hear some of those leaning toward a dispensational or Premillenial viewpoint throw their two cents in.
For the King who came!
Caleb
If you keep reading after Matt 16:28 you will find that the next event recorded is the transfiguration. It is possible that he was referring to this as a preview of the coming Kingdom with Himself glorified and glorified OT Saints accompanying Him. This is the next event in all of the Gospels so it seems to me the best way to interpret what he said just prior to that.
The Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 has Jesus answering the multiple questions that the disciples pose to him. I believe He is speaking to the coming destruction of the Temple in 70 AD but also to far future events. The context seems to demand that: “[21] For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [22] And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.”
(Matthew 24:21-22 ESV) – How could we say that the events of 70 and/or 130-135 AD were greater than any tribulation ever? And how did they endanger “all of humanity”? No I think this references a future event which has not yet occurred. The difficulty, admittedly is parsing out which parts apply to which generations. I think the final “generation” statement best applies either to the Jewish race as a whole (which is in most footnotes as an optional rendering) or to that final generation. The “this” does not necessarily have to be referring to the current generation if the events described previous to that comment were events which would take place in the far future. Matthew even says “let the reader understand” as a parenthetical statement in reference to the Abomination of Desolation. This suggests the words spoken by our Lord were not just for His disciples at that time but for all those who would read those words later.
In Matthew 26:64 and Mark 16:42 I think the better question to ask might be, “How could they have seen Jesus coming in great power on the clouds except after they died?” Because, actually dead men do “see”. Remember, “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”! Also, you could reference the account of Lazarus and the Rich man. The rich man was in conscious torment and aware of what was happening to Lazarus. He will also be aware of Jesus coming in glory as well. At least that is the conclusion that I would draw.
Luke 11 I would understand as referring to the judgment upon the generation of Jews who rejected Jesus as His first coming. Their judgment was executed in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple and the razing of Jerusalem. This is what jesus referred to in Matt. 23 leading up to the Olivet Discourse – Matt. 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
This judgment on that generation does not mean that all the events described in the Olivet Discourse are limited to that one event. Remember that the OT prophets would often prophecy of Jesus 1st and 2nd comings in one statement with no clear delineation between the two. Compare for instance Isaiah 61 and Luke 4:16-20. Jesus only quotes and states that the first part of the prophecy from Isaiah 61 is fulfilled in their presence. He even stops in the middle of a sentence! The latter part of Isaiah 61 awaits fulfillment at His 2nd coming.
In Revelation 1:19 John is also told to, “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.” This gives an indication that some things he will write reference things which have already occurred, some are presently occurring and others will take place in the future.
The term translated “shortly” is ἐν τάχει which can mean “immediately, quickly, or shortly”. It can mean in context something that will happen quickly at an indeterminate point in the future. As always context determines the meaning.
The main things to keep in mind when studying these passages is to look at the context of the verses, the chapter it is in, the whole book and finally the whole of Scripture. We must interpret Revelation for instance with an awareness of all that was prophesied in the OT about the great and terrible “Day of the Lord”.
Ultimately I cannot accept the Preterist position that all these things occurred in 70 AD because what occurred then does not fit the description of the events in Revelation. I await a real and awesome 2nd coming of our Lord when:
“Rev. 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
So shall it be! Amen.”
Hey Kevin,
I must say bro, I really enjoyed reading your post. Had a good bit of flak coming my way from other bloggers the past few days and none of them even attempted to remain biblical about it. You however did. And though we definitely disagree I like your diligent attempt to remain faithful to the text.
Just a few thoughts. The preterist understanding of these passages is, as you are well aware, that Christ came back spiritually in judgement on the nation of israel in 70 ad. So a lot of these verses we would take and say, yes, Christ did return. Yes He abolished the temple system, making way for the church to expand more freely into the gentile world. And yes He is coming again at the very end of the age to finally judge the world.
Matt. 16:28 I get you man, but it seems odd to say, some of you will not die til I come in my kingdom, when you are coming in a week. Odds are none of them died til the next week. The statement loses all of its force.
Also in this verse as well as your dealings with some others, I think you attempt to divorce the OT passages that deal with the coming of the Lord from your thinking. Over and over again the OT speaks of God coming in judgement upon Assyria, Tyre, Sidon and babylon in the same terminology as in the NT. Hebraic apocalyptic language. So an attempt to look at Matt. 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 must figure this in. To interpret apocalyptic literature properly is not to literalize it. That is taking it out of context and forcing another one in.
Regarding the vision of dead men 🙂 Once again I understand but I dont think you are correct. If the correct interpretation of apocalyptic language is a spiritual return in judgement as the OT shows it is, then we need not speculate about the powers of vision from a soul or dead body. The high priest did see the sack of jerusalem at the hands of the romans who came as God ordained them to.
And also in your bringing in the greek word for shortly you emphasized context. Yes context. In context He is urging them to be on their toes and ever watchful because His coming is soon!!! I think context denies two thousand years as a reasonable interpretation of soon.
Finally I look to the OT passages about the coming of God in judgement.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. Isa. 13:10
Spoken against babylon. And then babylon fell under a military conquest.
When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.
Spoken against Egypt. And then Egypt fell under a military conquest.
Typical OT apocalyptic language for the awesome destruction of a nation. To interpret them literally is not to understand the hebraic mindset.
But thanks again for your post Kevin. Feel free to critique away!
Hey Caleb,
Thanks for the response. I appreciate when we as believers can disagree, even passionately, about biblical issues yet with charity. I know that I do not have all the answers and no “system” of eschatology provides all the nice clear answers that we might desire. I personally, however, have always been drawn to a literal understanding of these prophecies vs. a spiritual or metaphorical one.
My responses to your comments would be as follows:
– Regarding Jesus coming back “spiritually” to judge the nation of Israel: How would this fulfill Jesus promise that they would “see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”? The Jewish leaders of that age in no way recognized that the judgment was from Jesus! They may have seen the judgment as having come from God but not for their rejection of the messiah. They would have to admit Jesus was God to admit the judgment was from Him.
– I agree the Matt. 16 passage is not easy. I have always found this from Peter helpful in understanding it:
2 Peter 1:16-18 (ESV)
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
Here Peter says clearly that they could make know the power and coming of the Lord because they had been with Him on on the mountain of transfiguration and been eyewitnesses of a “preview” of His majesty.
I don’t agree that the statement loses its force simply because His words were fulfilled so soon. It had to happen sometime during their lives and many of the disciples died a martyr’s death soon.
-In regards to OT prophecy regarding the Day of the Lord and specifically Isaiah 13:9-16; I find that the prophecies regarding the “Day of the Lord” are all referring to the end times and not specific instances of judgment against an individual nation such as Babylon. Isaiah 13:9-16 is general in its reference and applies to many nations not just Babylon. The same language is used regarding the sun moon and stars because it is referring to the same event as the NT passages, i.e. the final judgment of the world and the purification of God’s people Israel at the Great and terrible Day of the Lord. After making his point about the ultimate judgment that will one day come he returns to the specific judgment against Babylon which involves the Medes. Isaiah does much the same thing in the next chapter when he alludes to the rebellion of Satan in condemning the King of Babylon.
I also would say that there may be many “days of the Lord’s judgment” such as the one against Babylon but they all point to the one great eschatological “Day of the Lord’. This day is unique and involves all the nations of the world and a focus on purifying Israel who will then enter the promised messianic age after being returned to obedience to the Lord and His Messiah.
– Regarding a “spiritual return in judgment”; I don’t think the OT prophecies set a pattern for a “spiritual return”. Yahweh does not have to “return” he simply acts in judgment in his own time and way just as He has promised. Jesus Christ on the other hand came physically to save sinners and He will return physically. I don’t see any evidence of a hidden or spiritual return that no one recognized. The angels even told His disciples in Acts, when they were staring into the sky where Jesus had just physically ascended and disappeared,
[11] and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
(Acts 1:11 ESV)
– Looking at apocalyptic literature properly is not to “literalize it”, neither is it to “spiritualize it”. It is simply to understand it as it was intended. This includes literal components and symbolic components, all of which have a literal meaning. I am not saying that is easy, just that it is not helpful when one side generalizes about what the other side is doing. (Don’t take that as harsh as I realize both sides can be guilty of this)
– Regarding watching for His “soon” return; If His soon return happened solely in 70 AD then are we no longer to be watching and anticipating His return? I also do not have a problem with 2,000 years as a reasonable amount of time. First because the point I was making was that “soon” in that context could mean that the events described will happen quickly once they begin sometime in the indeterminate future. And most importantly,
[4] They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” [5] For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, [6] and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. [7] But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
**[8] But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.** [9] The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. [10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
(2 Peter 3:4-10 ESV)
Finally keep in mind that the prophecies regarding the Lord Jesus Christ’s 1st coming were fulfilled literally and physically. There is every Biblical indication that His 2nd coming will be fulfilled in the exact same way.
Thanks for the healthy dialogue as this is great exercise for me and it is a good thing to go back and research these ideas afresh in the Word.
Hey Kevin,
I dont think I want to go in depth on that one. I think we have both said our piece. One thing though…
Regarding your thoughts on apocalyptic language in OT. It seems like you like spiritualizing beyond the LITERAL reading of the text to say they are foretelling the end times.
You see I just cant get into all that spiritualizing you premies do. Literal reading for me.
🙂 🙂
So bro, do you have a website or blog or something? I do very much enjoy keeping in contact with those I dialog with who love the Word.
Send me your info if you are fine with that. Im on FB too.
God bless bro! All eyes on the King!
No problem, the comments section may not be the best place for this in-depth of a discourse!
We will have to agree to disagree on the OT passages. It would take us working through specific passages together to see clearly where the other was coming from.
I don’t blog myself but I am on twitter occasionally @kevcbacon and on Facebook as well. I also work for a ministry that provides training for untrained pastors around the world. You can find us at @btcp and http://btcp.com.
Blessings to you as well and,
“Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.” Ephesians 6:24
Good thoughts Caleb. I have leaned more and more strongly toward teh preterist / postmil view for many years now. The more I study it the further I lean that way.
Your blog looks great! Good stuff on here. Continue to Sit / Walk / Stand for the King!
Jason,
Just so everyone knows Jason was the one who first introduced me to preterist heresy. I was a young man, easily influenced and I heard about how this guy believed all this crazy stuff about the return of Christ. I approached him quite concerned and began to ask questions.
Thus began my downfall.
Thanks jason. The same to you brother!
For the King!